Episode # 60 – Owen Johnston | Chris Stepien | Chad Burnham
[00:00:01] Chad Burnham: On this episode of “In The RACK” podcast.
[00:00:04] Owen Johnston: He basically said there's three rules of masterminds and joining them. One, does a leader a mentor, have what you want? Two, are they actively doing it? And then three, therefore, can they collapse time? If you're putting in a big investment, it's supposed to be gut wrenching and hard.
[00:00:29] PODCAST INTRO: Welcome to “In The RACK” podcast, where we provide you with the practical framework for breaking PRs in all facets of health and wellness. We are just a couple of bros giving you the simple house in a world of complex wants. No filters, no scripts, no rules, just straight talk, talk tune. Now, let's get into the rack with your hosts, Dr. Chad and Dr. Chris.
[00:00:55] Chad Burnham: Alright, everyone. Welcome to another episode of “In The RACK” podcast. My name is Chad. And I am with a couple of amazing people actually, I'm actually in Costa Mesa, California at the Bedros Keuilian live event. Here with Owen Johnson. He is a physical therapist in San Diego. He owns Advanced Physical Therapy and wellness. I'm also here with Chris Stepien, and he runs “Barefoot Rehab”, which is in New Jersey. So we're kind of like all over the map here, which is pretty sweet. And we all got connected. And we're super excited to just kind of rip this morning. We're on the terrorist if you will, in the gazebo, just having a good morning. So we all got a little workout in this morning. So now we're just gonna go rip on just life. And I just want to kind of hear a little bit more about you guys and your stories. And everything that you guys have been through. The amazing things that you guys are doing in the space, because that is super important with giving everybody motivation to kind of not only make themselves better, but maybe it's something that they may want to do and it's how can I do that? So I met Owen at PT Biz Con, which is Aaron LeBauer's main event that he hosted this year, well actually didn't physically meet Owen, but at that point in time, Owen did have a mohawk and tattoos and I was like, “I gotta meet this guy.” And we just kind of got sidetracked and it just never happened but we did connect later on that week. And we were like, do we get to meet and we've just been connected ever since. And I finally got to meet him here in California. So super excited to meet him. And then, Chris, I met through Owen, so amazing connections being made here. So, Owen, we'll start with you. Why don't you tell me a little bit about your story, your journey, opening up your own PT practice? It's only been a year for you pretty much just over.
[00:02:51] Owen Johnston: It'll be two years next month.
[00:02:53] Chad Burnham: Two years. That's awesome. So I'd like to hear a little bit about your story about why you decided to open up maybe your own practice and all the things that you're doing right now.
[00:03:02] Owen Johnston: Sounds good. So I'm gonna share my quick story about when I was in PT school, and there was a guest speaker, and she worked in acute rehab, “Neuro”. And she start off going, how many people in here want to work in acute rehab “Neuro”, maybe one or two people like the beats people that raise their hand. And he was like, how many people in here want to do outpatient ortho? And 99% of the class raise their hand all excited, myself included. And she is like, “Looked defeated?” And was like, “Yeah, I did too”. And then things changed. And I was like, “Whoa, what do you mean things changed?” Things aren't gonna change for me. I'm gonna go work for a small outpatient clinic and I'm gonna live my best life. I'm gonna live like a simple man like Leonard Skinner song, and it's gonna be great. And then I got out into the real world. And I was at an insurance based practice. And my mentor is great. I love him to death. Dr. Caleb Stewart. He is by the book “There's no illegal activity going on there” and it costs him definitely, but I was still seeing like four patients an hour, about 30 patients a day within two years. I got burned out. And just like she said, things changed. So I went work for home health. And my goal was to work for Kaiser so I worked for another company, get some home health experience. I solve two problems. They went from 30 patients a day to like five patients a day. And then I also got a 40% increase in pay. So I'm like, “Well, that's pretty great. My psychological break.” This is cool. Then we moved on San Diego worked for Kaiser and I thought it was going to retire with Kaiser. I worked for them for about four years and everything was maximized. It was a pay, time off that I was actually able to take off it was great. Other than not being fulfilled as a PT, I got into PT to help like the injured athlete get back on the field or like a guy that's too afraid to throw the head coach of his kids baseball team is too afraid to throw the ball because his shoulder hurts too bad. Not necessarily helped grandma roll over in bed. I mean, we can use the terminology like patient, caregiver education, standby assist, bed mobility, shower transfer, card transfer, whatever. I mean, it's helping people roll over here. And that's not why I became a PT. So I was not fulfilled as a PT, but I was doing great. I thought I was gonna retire. They had a pension all that stuff. And then they came out with those COVID mandates and vaccination requirements and stuff. And I realized, the governments really created a bunch of indentured servants. And I was like, “No, I can't go through with any of this stuff, and I put in for my religious exemption.” And I was very outspoken about it. And they were like, “We got to get rid of this guy”. So they terminated me very quickly. I was one of the first people terminated because they said I was going to be on unpaid admin leave. And I was like, “No, you're going to pay me and in writing and all this stuff.” And they did end up paying me, of course, he paid me all of it. So I was like, “Cool, I'm gonna open up my own cash based practice then.” And I didn't even necessarily know what that meant. But my wife, who was a retired PT, because she left the field from the burned out, she maintained her license, but for six years, she had been out, she looked at me, it was like, “I support you, but I want no part in this.” And she is like, “Have fun.” And I was like, I'm gonna do this. So went out. For the first two weeks, I would have given my projections from those two weeks, I probably would have made less than $800. But luckily, I found Aaron from God's path, basically or he found me from his marketing, who knows, and I joined one of his courses. The second week, I was in business. And within two weeks after that by doing what he told me to do, which was very uncomfortable selling packages, like a deer in the headlights, I felt we made $7,400 that first month. And then he was like, “Join my mastermind afterwards.” And I'm like, “Sure, no problem, I'd be stupid not to join his mastermind, cleared over 200k the first year, and then continued to scale.” And I think now we opened up our brick and mortar location in six months. And I built the dream PT job for myself, I'm like, “I'm making more money than a home health PT”. I can like take time off if I want to, and go places I can pay for whatever content courses I want. Like, this is the life. And I'm making home health money with a home health caseload. I'm like, “I can't just have this on my own, I gotta share it.” Now, as the clinic becomes more fully automated, I have a vision that's more national to give every outpatient physical therapist the opportunity and make home health money with a home health caseload and outpatient, because I feel that outpatient deserves to be paid like that, and home health don’t.
[00:07:49] Chad Burnham: Your story is probably like most people's story, they're just fed up with the current model that they're in, they're being burned out and they're looking for that change, they're looking to make that leap. And you actually made the leap because you took action. And it's like, I think that's the biggest thing that most people have a hard time with, and I don't think people really understand either to clear 200k in your first year is pretty amazing. I mean, I know a lot of cash based practices that start out that they're not doing that. I mean, there'll be lucky to hit six figures. So for you to do that, you not only put in the work, but you did the right work. And I know having a coach is part of that success, and I know we talked about this, and I know I've talked about this with Chris too, it’s like every coach needs a coach and it's so important. And I think people don't see the value and how quick you can accelerate not only your personal growth but your professional growth, and it definitely needs to be more of a thing. And people need to be able to see the value there so that they can actually do the right things and not waste time. Because we all know practices that have been in business for years that are still not where they should be. And I think that's the main reason why they're just holding themselves back.
[00:09:05] Owen Johnston: Well, we did it in six months. It took Aaron five years, because it's like he already made the mistakes. He had the wins and lessons. It took him a long time to get a coach Bedro's. So basically, he taught me everything. And I also wanted to break the record, I wanted to break his record of most revenue earned. So I'm really pleased that I broke his record of coaching clients and because I was like, “It's been done, the mile has been broken under four minutes”. Well, then let's see how far we can push it. And but what I like to say is like, we took five years and turn it into six months. And when I tell people paid $20,000 for the program, they look at me like I'm crazy. And I'm like my $20,000 for five years, should I pay hundreds of 1000s of dollars to shave five years off, that I can spend with my family and my friends like you guys.
[00:09:53] Chad Burnham: 1,000% think about all the money that you've lost over those five years. It’s more than 20,000 I can say that much, that's wild. So I love the story. That's so cool. So you're running your practice now. You're working with Aaron, what's your vision for advanced PT and wellness for the next three to five years?
[00:10:13] Owen Johnston: Great question. I'm working with Aaron I'm actually coaching for Aaron for free, like I just do a call from once a month. And just to add value to give back. Currently, I'm in another mastermind while I'm in Greg Todd's inner circle smart success healthcare. He's got three tiers. So he's got regular mastermind, he's got to invite only, I forgot what it is. But they got to be clearing over 300k or something like that in order to be there. Because it costs 50k a year. And he's got his golden ticket on with three people in there and it costs 100k a year. So my goal, and our goal because my wife joined in after six months, when she saw the impact had on the patient's life. She's like, I want it on this now. And I'm like, “Okay, cool”. So our vision is, like Greg Todd said, what he told Kelly, what Kelly did, Kelly Louis, is become a unicorn, grow a seven figure practice, get it fully automated, and then get into coaching. And like I said, since I want to give every outpatient physical therapist the ability to make home health money with the Home Health caseload, I'm not going to do that from just Advanced Physical Therapy and wellness. So I'm going to do PT launch, I'm not even going to need to change out to Moses name, I'm going to do PT launch. And we're going to go to people build out the systems with them, and then allow them to start launching or re-launching their cash practice, because no one else in the space has a go to you do it with you mine. It's all coaching and teaching, which is great that worked for me. But not everyone wants that.
[00:11:44] Chad Burnham: A lot of people like the one on one, they like the in person stuff too. I think it creates more accountability, but it also creates that, like you said, it's like step by step guidance that you get little bits and pieces being through the mastermind, because I've been mastermind as well. And you feel like you're kind of missing something, you know what I mean? And it's not for everybody, like you said, and that's cool model. I think that's great. I'm excited to see where that goes. Chris, on to you, my friend. So I obviously just met you recently, but Owen’s been talking a lot about you and you've been doing some great things. And you're a chiropractor in New Jersey. And you've got a lot of things going on. I mean, your successful practice, but then you also do a lot of technique based work that you're trying to promote as well. So tell me a little bit about your practice first, kind of how you got started there. I'd also like to hear a little bit about you working with Bedro's and what made you make that decision to want to work with Bedro's because that's a big jump like this. And you did that a while ago, right?
[00:12:51] Chris Stepien: Last August when I started this. I also did the project in 2019.
[00:12:54] Chad Burnham: So I know, it's been a few years since you've kind of been like in his circle, kind of working with him. So I'd like to hear a little bit more about how that worked for you, and what the reasoning was for you to do that. And what your goal was?
[00:13:07] Chris Stepien: I love it. As far as the practice goes, I started in 2010, so 13 years. I graduated, and pretty much just started my own practice and I did catch right of the start. It's interesting to me here, hearing some of the conversation around like systems and structure, because I don't spend like any time thinking about it. It's just been a thing that we've been doing. So I remember it was $45 a visit for 15 minute visits. And I had treated a bunch of different CrossFit gym owners. And my whole, my whole purpose was I just want to show them the value we can deliver. And then I had three of them invite me into their spaces. And then one of them was referring me a ton of people. And I just asked her, “Do you want me to start my practice here”, and she's like, “That'd be great.” So that's how I started. And then within a year, I got around like 70 patients a week. And then I started stair stepping up, although I went up to like $65 a visit and I was there for like five years. I started a CrossFit gym from 2012, and I failed massively in 2017. So then in 2015-ish. I was really annoyed at my skill set and my delivery of results. So as far as my mentor, Dr. Brady from Newburyport, Massachusetts. I saw somebody who started in 2012 surpassed my skill set in 2015. So that really pissed me off, and it made me really angry. So around 2016, 2017, I remember making a decision that I was going to train as much as I physically possibly could train on an adhesion release, or his systems integrated diagnosis or manual adhesion release as possible. So I spent over 100,000 dollars that year. And then I was going up to Newburyport twice a month, so 24 times in a year. And then within a year of that, I went from $65 a visit to $85 a visit. And then I went to a $2,500 case fee upfront. And then now we're at a $3,600 case fee for 16 treatments, and 15 minute visits. So that's sort of our structure of how we do things. That's all based on. We treat chronic pain sufferers. So there we qualify them. Have you had pain more than six months, have you seen at least your doctor, a therapist and you qualify to see us? And it's all based on our social media presence referrals and just people they're struggling with answers. I don't like there are 3000 chiropractors in New Jersey, there are 8000 physical therapists, and I just struggle with depression. So I never want to play the game that I might as well not exist if I'm going to be another chiropractor PT like that. So the adhesion route and the chronic pain really speaks to me.
[00:16:02] Owen Johnston: But as far as Bedros with coaching, I've always been a fan of coaching and investing. I truly believe Jay yesterday was talking about the sabotage. Sounds like that's fucking brilliant. That was brilliant. Because I think the ultimate question that I'll talk to people now that I'm coaching people with this technique is do how quickly do you want to achieve your goal? And then they can tell me how quickly you're not. And then I'm saying, if you want to get this call as quickly as possible, you need somebody doesn't have to be me, you need somebody to get here. And then if they have an incongruence, then just call it out and be like, you're fucking lying to yourself, because you're saying you want to go fast, but then you're not going to get support. Do you see how this isn't working? All of the best athletes in the retirement world, I've listened to Kobe Bryant a lot. With Tim Grover, it's just that everybody has their coaches who bring them where they have to go. And Bedros says, I did the project 2019 what I love about him is that I close my shit out. I love it. Just a couple weeks ago, he was like, “You're a liar. You're selfish. Your kids are gonna have that”. And I was like, “Damn you’re right”. And I appreciate that type of accountability. Because without that I will be slippery and avoid doing the things that I have to do. So he's been integral from doing the project four years ago, and with coaching in the last year to say, “Chris, you said you want this. You have a family, and patients and staff were depending on you. And now you have to fucking do it or stop lying to yourself. And that was integral.”
[00:17:41] Chad Burnham: That's awesome. And I really do. I mean, I know, not everybody responds well to that type of feedback. But I do and I know you do too. And, honestly, I know everybody's a little bit different. But I think if you're not ready for it, those are the people that actually need it more than the people that aren’t. So if you know you’re self-sabotage, sabotaging yourself, and you can't take the feedback, I feel like that's something that you have to work on yourself, like, you're convincing yourself that you may not need this help, or you may not need to do this or ‘X’, ‘Y’, ‘Z’, but at the end of the day, you need somebody to call you out on your shit. Like, I met Bedros through my coach who is our Ali Gilbert. And she's been my coach for about a year and a half in terms of like, my programming and my nutrition and all that, and she has no problem calling out my shit. And that was the reason why I hired her as a coach, and I love it, and I feel when your coach is a little bit too lacks on you, it gives you the leeway to get away with things and then you're back to self-sabotaging yourself because you've convinced yourself that, it's not the right time, or it's never the right time to do anything. But I think that that's, that's a great point that, I really think that when you're looking at a coach to bring you to that next level, you need to find somebody that's going to keep you accountable and call you on your shit. And if you can't take the shit that's being called on you, then that's something you have to work on. You're just not ready for the coach unfortunately, but I think that's what definitely separates people especially when you're talking about, like, people that are going to take advantage of that feedback and go for success and people that aren't and then just stay where they are, that's a great point.That was that was a good talk with Jay, I enjoyed that a lot. And I love Bedros’s message just across the board. I definitely gravitate more towards that type of style anyways. So you've got your myofascial technique, or is it kind of like a scar? Can you explain that a little bit?
[00:19:59] Chris Stepien: So adhesion release medicines. I tried to keep it as simple and like direct and straightforward as posture. So Dr. Brady used to teach for active release technique, up through like 2006. And what he noticed, I love Dr. Leahe he started ART, but he noticed that Dr. Leahe was packing hundreds of doctors and do seminars, and there was about like these seminars and certifying doctors, and Dr. Brady was noticing things like I remember long that he was teaching along this lay he was teaching along this call are you come lateral to SEM and you push SEM either way to go to let Long's Coli in the front of spine. And he's trying to do stuff. And this is not possible. So Dr. Brady saw a bunch of different spots like that, and ART and he said, I see an opportunity here, I want to take the top 5% of ART providers, and I want to make them the best in the world. It was through more training, more diagnose, especially more diagnosing, respecting adhesion, and respecting when somebody does not have adhesion, and saying fixing people you can fix and pointing people in the other direction, people you can't. So integrative diagnosis was doing that from 2008 to 2020. And then Dr. Brady retired in 2020. So it's adhesion work and I use that term. Precisely because a lot of times people will say I've had active release technique, I've had myofascial release if not the same. And then so providers who have done ART, and then they get training with me, or they've had training with Dr. Lytle, and St. Louis or Dr. Brady, as soon as they do the training, they're like, it's very different. It's much more precise, as far as how you feel tissue and just really respecting I call it Bat Stone are like the 3d imagery of the muscular structures, the nerves or tendons in the body. And then being able to feel adhesion, there are certain principles that you have to respect in order to see if there's adhesion, a problem there. And then once instructors learned, or doctors or therapists learned how to feel that adhesion, then they could start respecting the principles and practicing in practice more diligently and then holding themselves accountable to the principles and not breaking them. So it's not myofascial release, I've realized we're just talking about this. So most doctors or therapists, they would might be listening to this and be like, it's myofascial release.
[00:22:26] Chad Burnham: That's why I wanted to explain it because I wasn't familiar with the technique, either. So I think more people need to know that there are other techniques out there, because maybe this technique is more appropriate for this person, or that person or whatever, to have all these tools in the tool bag is always helpful, and I had never heard that term before. So I wanted to know a little bit more about it. And I don't want to confuse the two because there's obviously a difference.
[00:22:51] Chris Stepien: I appreciate it.
[00:22:52] Chad Burnham: In respect for, for what you do too. So I think that the one common thing that we can agree on is that if you're going to do coaching, it's going to cost money. Like you're spending $100,000. You're spending $100,000. Like, people need to understand that it's gonna cost money. Is there any advice that you can give people? I mean, we all understand the value. But a lot of times, it's hard for people to see the value. It's hard for people to say, “Oh, I don't know if I can afford that or I don't know, if it's gonna cost $100,000 this year, or that.” It's gonna cost 50k this year, what was the deciding factor for you to be like, I probably could put that money elsewhere, which is what most people do, whether it's like in their own pocket or buy more equipment that they don't need, or buy more courses that they don't need to take, if they've already taken five times or whatever. So what is the deciding factor that would push somebody to say, this is what I need to do and I'm okay with spending the money?
[00:23:53] Owen Johnston: Well, I'll tell my story about Greg Todd this last year, this past June. So I'm already in Aaron's mastermind, and it's technically not going to upload till November. And basically, he invited me to SDHC live, and I told him, I couldn't go. And he was like, “No, you just got to get you in front of the people.” Like he wants to blow me up. And he was like, whatever it takes to get you there. If you can just come out for a day if you got to do I know you got to lead your team building momentum, you got to do that as leader but even if you just come out for one day, I gotta get you in front of people. I said, “Okay”. And I made it happen took a red eye out, which I don't take red eyes. And I was on the plane and was like, I know Greg's gonna sell something. I'm not buying anything from Greg. I'm not buying anything from Greg. I'm gonna work with Greg in November. And that's going to be that because I didn't even know about the inner circle being 50k. I was like, I knew him and he's gonna be in his mastermind, which is 20 or 30k. And I was like “Because Greg has what I want”, which is he had multiple clinics as well as he's got an amazing coaching program, and he also prioritized his family, which that's one thing that's been missing, even Bedros doesn't talk about his family says it’s not sexy. And even though he's married and has kids, but I want someone that prioritizes that because I want to prioritize that, so has what you want. But it was not easy spending the 50k. Like, it was a little bit easier spending like 20k with Aaron because I was able to put that on one credit card one zero balance credit card. I didn't realize it when I went there. And I was like, “No, I gotta do this now. Because his high ticket closer. Anthony Rich is a great guy. He can sell you your own stuff seriously.” He basically said there's three rules of like masterminds, and joining them and why you do it. One, “Does a leader a mentor, have what, what you want, or has someone in his program that currently has what you want?” Two, “Are they actively doing it?” And then three, “Therefore, can they collapse time?” And since Aaron was able to collapse five years in the six months, and I kind of grew to like the big kid in the room. I was like, Well, Ben Beck said, “You got to find new rooms.” So I found new room. And I was like I was in the room when he had this special breakfast invite only as little golden tickets, cool little thing. And he was like, it's gonna be 50k. And he didn't even sell that hard, because he already knew that most of us in there knew the value of coaching. And I was like, “Cool”. I gotta go figure some stuff out. I can't commit to this right now because I need to go talk to my business partner, aka my wife. And the first thing she was like, I took a picture. I kind of started planting the seed because our friends Cow Womack and Jen Womack, they were up on stage and took a picture of them as well. They joined Greg Todd's inner circle, not the mastermind, the inner circle. And first thing Jen text says, “Oh, that's great, how much that costs?” And I was like, we'll talk about that later. And then I waited till we got back home, to tell her about it. And then she was like, “I get it. We're going to do it. How are we going to do it? How are we going to get the money?” Because it's supposed to be gut wrenching? If you're putting in a big investment, it's supposed to be gut wrenching and hard. And like I said, errands was actually easy. I looked at my credit cards, balances, and there the max was 20k. And I was like, “Oh shit, I thought I was just gonna put it on one credit card, like I've done with Aaron's mastermind the past two years and pay it off throughout the year because it always pays you back.” And I was like, “Oh shit, it took us like a half day for me and her both working on the computer is trying to find new credit cards or strategy so that we weren't going to be applying for two in a row” and then getting denied from the second one, because that's happened to me before in the past, even though I have no credit card debt. Except for what I pay off on the zero balance credit card for coaches throughout the year. So we had to order these convenience checks from one. I had to apply for another which only got 10,000 on the balance and like fuck, that's not enough that 20,000 on these convenience checks, zero balance, we got a 10K on this 30k. We're gonna do 20k. We got up until this point to pay off the balance. Well, then we're gonna ride it out until a couple weeks before, and then we're gonna apply for this next one. And then halfway through, if we need to apply for this next one, but luckily, the other one gave us 20k. So we're like sweet, we got a 50k. And we could pay for it. But that was hard.
[00:28:14] Chad Burnham: That was a good story to hear because not everybody has 50k laying around just say, “Here you go.” Like, how do people actually make this jump? I know, people are always gonna say, but it's debt and I want to go into debt. But I firmly believe there's good debt and bad debt. And when you can go into debt to I mean, that's no different than getting student loans to get a college education. I know some people will say, pros and cons about that as well. But at the end of the day, like you're going into debt, so that you can make more, you know what I mean? I think it's totally worth it. Because not everybody has the ability just to throw that down like that.
[00:28:54] Chris Stepien: It's even better.
[00:28:55] Chad Burnham: Totally.
[00:28:56] Owen Johnston: Like that 50k or the 20k for Aaron. It's like my PT program cost me 60k. And do you think I made that back in a year that 60k? No, every other one of these coaching programs, I have paid it off that year, throughout the year. So it's like, and I think I talked about a PT biz con, like the cost of a small vision and the return on investment from my student loans was like, less than 5%. But then the return on investment I got from coaching is 3350. So every dollar that I spend into coaching into myself, I get a $33.50 cent return. That's like going to the casino and betting one of the high bets and winning every single time.
[00:29:37] Chad Burnham: And I think you brought up a good point. I actually just had this conversation with a PT student that we just had, and they're going to PT school and I asked them, why? What's the reason why they're going because I hope it's not about the money because the return on the investment for that education is not what it used to be. These colleges nowadays are 60,000 – 65,000 – $70,000 a year for an undergraduate education. That's a one year salary coming out of PT school, and not even, so the return is not there. I think that people are just kind of getting looped into the idea that they are just privileged enough to make six figures coming out of school, and how many hiring new PT’s, they come out and they just demand six figures, and I want four weeks’ vacation, and I want all the holiday pay. And it's like, I get it's a generational thing, I understand. But you're only going to get paid what the market says you're worth, you know what I mean? And that's the insurance driven world. But when we're not taking insurance, and it's in our own world, then we make our own market. So I think that a lot of people need to understand why they're going into the profession, and what they can do to best, not only help themselves, but help the most amount of people that can write because you get out of school, and you're just gonna go work for this big ass company. And maybe the pennies are okay, but the pay is shit. And you're when you actually think about it, and you think about all the patients that you're seeing and all the hours that you're working in, you actually do the math, the hourly pay, you could probably make more money working at the local grocery store.
[00:31:18] Owen Johnston: Well, the crazy thing is I did the math. And in California, the minimum wage, I think it's $18 an hour, $16 an hour. The average PT that's getting out of school is making 70k a year in outpatient. When you do the math, that's less than double minimum wage. You'd see what I'm saying? Eight years of slaving away to make double minimum wage and work harder too.
[00:31:38] Chad Burnham: Yeah, it's nuts. I mean, even my front desk staff, I pay all my employees very well, but my front desk staff will make more than entry level PT’s coming out, because they're worth it. And it's one of those things where it's amazing because you don't have to, I feel like there's just this stigma around, I have my doctorate. So I'm worth this much. It's like, when you come out of school, you're worth nothing. But it's great to hear everybody's story and how they've gotten to where they are, and make PT what you want to make it. I mean, that's what I always tell people now, it's just like PT’s anything you want to make it, chiropractors and if you want to make it, I was talking with Owen earlier and a lot of the chiropractors that I deal with in my area very much like yourself, the model has shifted so much now where it's not manipulate this, manipulate that, it's soft tissue work, it's exercise and dude, there's everybody's seeing the value, and we're almost becoming under one umbrella, almost like PT’s or chiropractor or kind of the same thing. All depending on their specialty. So I love the fact that that's the way it's going. And I always tell people now it's like even a chiropractor or a PT, if you're going to a physical therapist or a chiropractor, and you're just getting physical therapy or chiropractic, it's not enough anymore. I really feel that we need to be the “Primary care providers” for our patients. Because how many times do we see patients? Like how many hours do we see patients? Like, how many times a week do we see patients? Like, how many months do we see patients? Like how many times they see their primary care? Very little if any, and the amount of times that I'm able to help somebody, whether it's with like their nutrition or their sleep, or optimizing their life in some other way, besides just treating their shoulder pain or their knee pain, it really is just a trickle effect, and just makes that whole health approach just that much better. So I really feel like if you are not doing that, and you're just doing “Physical therapy, or chiropractic or massage” or whatever it is, I feel like you're doing a disservice to your patient.
[00:34:05] Owen Johnston: We're talking about structure and how governments control total and all that shit. Because I did a post a few weeks ago on Instagram that got a pretty good five times the amount of traction that my normal posts do. And I was talking about, they're talking about masks coming out in September for COVID in New Jersey, and I was telling a story about how someone was telling me this or my shoulder and I was like, “What's going on?” This is bullshit. When is Joe Biden gonna go on TV and just be like, “Yo, the viruses, this flu is coming and you need to eat your vegetables you need to get sunlight to exercise.” So I appreciate what you're sharing is that somebody in people's lives needs to stand for their health and that means telling them things that most doctors aren't gonna be telling them because the whole system is, I don't want to say it's rigged. But I mean, most medical doctors sub subconsciously are not just going to talk about vegetables and the sun and stress and they're not going to do it. So for PT’s or Cairo's or just somebody in their lives, and the healthcare system has to stand up for doing what's right by their health?
[00:35:24] Chad Burnham: Agreed. And I feel it doesn't get enough attention for sure. And it's not rigged, but I'm not a conspiracy by any means. I firmly believe it is fair enough. I really do think so too. I think it creates a dependency. And I feel like the more dependent we can be. I mean, Bezos talks about this whole time, the more dependent that we can be on the government, that's what they want. I mean, they want us to be dependent on medications, they don't want us to know about all these other benefits. And like you said, in this goes along with everything, if you're doing something different, whether it's you're going against the grain, you're bastardized. Physical therapy that doesn't take insurances, it’s bastardize. Chiropractor that doesn't take insurance, it’s bastardize. If you're saying, all you need is sunlight, and not this medication, or we like, that's bastardized. I mean, I used to blame the doctors, and I used to say, “Dude, there's, they're so corrupt, blah, blah.” But I honestly think they're just that much more uneducated, about what is app because they've been so in this model of the medical system, that's the only way they know how to treat people, whether it's through surgery or medication, they don't know any other way and then they hold. It is like you saw the whole thing, everybody getting their licenses taken away or threatened? Because they were going against, what everybody else was saying with the COVID vaccine and everything else? I mean, that's just crazy. But I really do agree with you. I think that there needs to be that person in their lives. And I've seen the change, like firsthand. And it not only differentiates you as a health care provider, but also your business. So if somebody's listening to this, and like, oh, well, how can I be different the community? That's a good way, make it less about the physical therapy and more about the whole health and how everything just kind of works together, still do your physical therapy, still do your chiropractic make people better. But how else can you optimize like what you're already doing in the clinic.
[00:37:22] Owen Johnston: And I think on a more spiritual level, that this really is a battle of consciousness. I was speaking to a dear friend of mine, who has a lot of the same beliefs that I do. He lives in Belgium. And all this COVID stuff came out. And he was talking to me recently, I saw him recently. And he was talking to me about like, the vaccine and the flu and all the shitty seeing and how crazy it is, and all that stuff. And then he was telling me how he's like, Chris, I saw you speaking up on your social media, and I see your comments, and people are like, “Fuck you, Chris. Like, all this other shit”. And when all that stuff happened during COVID, I didn't tell anybody. I didn't even tell people personally, what my apps were anything. And what I was thinking is your fucking coward. , because he's looking out for himself. And he's scared that was gonna happen to him. But you're letting shit happen to other people that you might be able to change where they're going with that. And that really fucked with me. And I realized that all my life, I've had this risk tolerance towards like doing what's right and putting myself in harm's way. But I believe that if we really care about people and our patients, it means being willing to risk that we might lose patients might lose money or I might even get in trouble from somebody by standing up for what's right. I sometimes mark it that we host psychedelic ceremonies and the ceremonies have changed my life. They changed my partner's life. And there is obvious risk because they're still schedule one drugs. And I will share how it's helped my depression, but I feel I can't hold that shit inside. I've seen it changed hundreds of people's lives in New Jersey, for people that need that help or support. So I think this can go to a much higher level of finding our truth and speaking that and trusting that there is a higher power that's guiding us and protecting us when Bedros said we're sharing our radiant world.
[00:39:30] Chad Burnham: And I think that a lot of people whether they're chiropractors or PTs, I feel like they a lot of this stuff is outside of the scope of their practice, but it's really not you know what I mean? It's in a lot of this stuff too is like you may have a resource for somebody to I talk about that all the time. It's like working with Ali over the last year and a half. And being involved with optimizing my health and all that other stuff I now. A lot of my patients I have them get lab work done if there's like other things going on that I think might be addressed. Now, I'm not the doctor that takes over that care, but I certainly have a resource of people that I work with, that can help them in that area, whether they need it or not, and I've seen that change people's lives like crazy, and I feel that people think that that would like overstepping or anything like that, but like, nobody else is doing it for them, , I go to my primary care and it's like, I don't get any lab work done. It's like, I don't know what's going on with my and I had this one guy come in, and I use him as like my poster guy. Like he was coming in Super unmotivated, had all this shoulder pain, like his training was suffering, like everything was suffering, his marriage, and all this other stuff. We did labs, this guy had the lowest TRT I've ever seen (testosterone). So I referred him over to the resource that I have, that he's now involved with TRT, and this dude over the last six months has changed not only his whole entire life, like his shoulders, amazing. He's feels 100%. It doesn't mean you see me anymore, but he still does. Because like, we have that trust built in now. He wants to make sure that everything's going well. And it's more of like a “Maintenance” program. But everything has changed for him, not only his pain, but his life, and when you can have an effect on somebody like that you're like, “This is cool. It's not just physical therapy”. I don't know, I think that's the direction that that everything kind of needs to go in. And that's what differentiates us. And that's what gives us the ability to do that, outside of the restrictions of insurance and all that other bullshit, because we have the time now to spend with these patients, and kind of dive in deeper with them versus, I only got 30 minutes. So I don't really have enough time for that, like my other patients waiting in the waiting room. I mean, some bullshit. I love the fact that that's what you guys are all doing. I think it's cool, and I'm glad to be a part of it for sure. Is there anything you guys want to rip on anything else you guys want to rip on? Is there anything you want to mention on?
[00:42:05] Owen Johnston: So I mentioned, Chris, how I met Chris. He added me on Instagram. And I'm and, and I added him back and then he messaged me as far as VA and I actually stole that and I started using it and sending it to people that were adding me. I literally use his exact words because it got me to respond back. So it gets other people responsive. Now my VA does it. But I saw that Bedros schooling was liking his stuff and I was like, “Why is Bedros liking this guy stuff?” So I sent a message said, “Hey, how do you know Bedros?” And then his assistant said, “Hey, this is assistant. And he went to the project”. And he's coached under him and stuff like that. And I was like, “Cool”. So that made me tune in a little bit more, “Oh, this guy's being coached, I'm gonna pay a little bit more attention to what he's talking about.” And then I noticed that he did the adhesion release method. At first I was like, “Oh, that's adhesion release technique. He's not even gonna change the name. He's just taking ART and just selling. Does he want to get sued?” And then I started noticing that it was different. And he has people flying all throughout the world to see him like France and stuff like that. And I want to get on this. So he was going to be do his half day with Bedros. And I figured when he was going to be in town, I said, “How we do this? If you're able to come out a little bit early, I'd love you to train my staff on this, and then do one of his accelerated courses just for my staff.” And then if anyone else was run, it was like, last minute, but there was a lot of people that are like, I wanted this, I wanted this. No one actually showed up, we had a week, we couldn't really market it. And so I really want to do it at our clinic in the future, like actually market it correctly. But he trained our staff and myself and literally the palpation skills are the most important part about it. And I've never been able to palpate nerves before, I can feel the nerves, I can feel the entrapment of the nerves, lot of the chronic pain is coming from the entrapment of the nerve, the muscles are guarding and trying to protect the nerve. That's why they're tightened up and it's kind of creating this feedback loop. Anyways, I describe it as kind of like peeling open an orange. And all that tissue in between is the adhesion like it literally is a sniper rifle effect, because you literally have to feel with no motor input or output, you have to have like a dummy hand and you have to kind of press along to where you can actually feel it. And that is one of the skills that you really need to have that and it is literally a sniper rifle approach. Before I was using ART but I was using ART people really like, it came back within 30 minutes to an hour. So then I started having to use like instrument assisted soft tissue mobilization cups, and ART. I was having to combine all this stuff to get lasting results. But I could just do it with this one method. And so we use it as a tool, and it's got great test retest. So it's great for PT’s because it gets the buy in from the patient to where we can actually afford to charge them what it is worth so that we can get the results that they want. And not only that, but they're flying out all over the world see him they're flying out like we had a guy in Guadalajara, Mexico as they're driving in from LA to San Diego to see us. Because it is unique, and it does work. And I want to share a little bit more about him. I'm drawing a blank. So maybe I'll let, Chris, rip on it a little bit more.
[00:45:19] Chris Stepien: Thank you for your kind words on it. I'm not sure what else to say. I mean, it's fun to be able to have we do have patients like driver flying all the time. And the most fun part for me is you're asking about owning it and answered, why? How did it feel or why did you sign up for coaching? And I was talking to a chiropractic friend a couple of weeks ago. A dear friend of mine, and he was saying he had 10 weeks of low back pain, it was getting better than he saw Dr. Todd from Health Source and all River and Massachusetts who does ARM adhesion release methods. And he trade one pass, and there's femoral nerve and all of his low back pain away. And Mark was like, “What the fuck? What just happened?” And he's like, Chris, you're onto something. He's like, but I gotta tell you, I'm making such good money. I'm making like, $200,000 a month or a year as an associate. It's just so good. But he said, I go to sleep at night. And I'm like, “Am I really helping people?” That is my worst nightmare. I would rather die than, I'm leaving shit on the table and not doing everything in my power to fucking help people. And the reason why is because I've talked to Owen about some of his stuff. And I'm curious about your story. But I've had some serious struggles with depression, suicidal ideation. And I remember being 15 years old, and on my hands and knees and my bedroom. And there are holes punched in the walls. And fuck you Chris that was your dad written all over the walls. My dad didn't know I was depressed. He told me three years ago, I didn't know you're depressed as a kid. I'm like, “Dad, you're fucking emotionally stunted.” And I remember being like sobbing on the ground and wishing that somebody could help me. I remember wishing that somebody can help me. So I just imagined these people in chronic pain are these people with emotional issues who need psychedelics, and if I don't say something, or do something that they are going to continue suffering the way that I was. So I think like everything that I do, and all of me hiring Bedros's is me trying to help myself as a 15 year old kid when I wanted to kill myself. And I will not go to sleep at night with really good money and saying, “Am I really helping people?” I'd rather fucking die. And I'd rather my sons know that I chose to die instead of living that life.
[00:47:35] Chad Burnham: So I tell everybody, a lot of people that are listening to this know my story, I was full insurance based when I first started my practice, and then I transitioned to cash. And if I wanted to just make money, I would just take insurance, I was making a shit ton of money with insurance. Like, in my third year, I was almost about to break seven figures in three years. And I had five physical therapists on staff, they were all being burned out, like we were just running the fucking business every day seven to seven, like we were just jamming, we're crushing it. And I just felt I wasn't helping people. Like, I could help people. I felt like I was chipping people. And, for me, exactly, like you said, it was starting to bother me. My staff, I could start seeing them. Like, they were starting to get a little bit. I use the word unhealthy. But I could see that they were getting burned out, they could, I could see that they were getting rundown, I could see that the drive was kind of like not quite there. And that's not what I wanted. Like, when I opened up my own practice, I wanted to make it a better solution for people. And I feel I was just doing the same thing that everybody else is fucking doing. And could I've made a great living? I'd probably be making even more money now. But I decided that what was more important for me and what can help me sleep at night is how can I best help my community? Well, I need to spend more time with my patients. Well, that means I need to see less patients. Well, that also means I need to not take insurance because I can't be restricted with things that I can and can't do, because I get paid for this but not for that. So I wanted to be able to make my own decisions and play my own game, not play their game. I totally relate with you on that level. And in regard to the coaching aspect, as physical therapists or chiropractors, we are in essence coaches, and for you to say that I don't need a coach and your physical therapist, you are the biggest fucking hypocrite in the world, because you're a coach, and your patients come to you because they need a coach. You're their coach, but who's your fucking coach? You don't have one. You're a hypocrite. So I firmly believe that everybody needs a coach. It doesn't have to be Bedros and it doesn't have to be like Aaron the power like it could be anybody you need to find the coach that works the best for you, but you need somebody to help guide you.
[00:50:03] Chris Stepien: And we can't see your blind spots.
[00:50:05] Chad Burnham: 1,000%. and that was the huge change in my business. And personally, like, I have a coach for everything. I mean, I probably have four total coaches right now. I mean, it's and they all helped me in different areas. And it's funny, I was actually just having a conversation with. Like, two or three conferences that I've been to almost everybody has a relationship coach. Do you have a relationship coach?
[00:50:28] Owen Johnston: I do not currently have a relationship coach, but that is on the list. I think I have four current coaches, though, but not a relationship coach yet.
[00:50:35] Chad Burnham: It's funny because I was at lunch with for the PT’s, and they were all taught, do you have one?
[00:50:41] Chris Stepien: Couples therapists.
[00:50:42] Chad Burnham: Couples therapist. So I'm talking about, so I was sitting at the table. And they were talking about it. And that was the only one at the table that didn't have one. And I'm like, “Wow, that's really fucked up. And I didn't think about it”. Because one of the therapists at the table was like, you have a coach for your business, you have a coach for your training, your nutrition, you have a coach for your other coaching business that you're coaching, but you don't have a coach for your relationship. Really good point. Like, I don't have a coach for that and I probably should. Like, nobody has the best marriage or the best like relationship. How can my relationship be better, I want my business to be better, I want my physique to be better, but like, I don't care about my relationship. I guess that's what it says. So I'm like, “Man, I gotta look into this.” That's pretty messed up, everybody that I talked to like you too, and now included, it's like, everybody has one and I don't have one. And I feel that's an area that I could improve on. So like you said, can't see your blind spots. So I just wanted to bring that up, because it's super important that a coach just doesn't have to be an advisor for just like your business, but there's coaches for everything, and I feel like we underutilize that and it's a great point for sure. .
[00:52:04] Owen Johnston: Like, I got handstand coach.
[00:52:05] Chad Burnham: You were just saying that. That's Mitch down, that's wild. That's so cool.
[00:52:11] Owen Johnston: I'm gonna do one more thing about you both. So yours is about the coaching about how great what you're going to be launching. But I remember what I was gonna talk about Chris. So adhesion release method is great for not only cash base PT’s, we got that test retest, but it's great for insurance based PT’s to because he does what he does in 15 minutes. And when I was an insurance based PT’s, I only had about 10-15 minutes to the patient. So if he can get the results, 10-15 minutes, sure, they can do their exercise with the aid so they with the aid so they can build their insurance, whatever. And then they can go to sleep at night, knowing that they're actually making patients better with the 15 minutes now we're different. We use it as a tool. And I still like doing therapeutic. I still like doing exercise neuromuscular re-education. So we spend an hour with our patients. I'm not sure if that's ever going to change but it's great. Like I said, for pretty much everyone chiropractors to obviously because we're one, we're manual therapists, that's what we do we get patients better. And that's what we want. So I wanted to mention that and then for you and your coaching stuff. So if you're an insurance based practice owner, and you're exactly like Chad was describing here, I would recommend you talk to Chad. Because in all the coaching programs that I've been in, and all the business coaching programs, there's people that have insurance based practices that struggle, they some of them eventually make it but there's a girl two and a half years into one of my mastermind programs, and I was talking about my highest revenue month 57k her highest revenue month and over like 1520 years is 42k. And she was trying to tell someone in there to take work comp. And I was just like, No, this is the reason why we don't take work comp, I've done this in less than two years and have more revenue than you do. And my PT’s aren't burned out, and I'm not burnt out. So what Chad is doing, essentially is he knows exactly what it feels like to. Well, I don't know if I can cut Medicare because that's my bread and butter keeps the lights on. And somebody like, Aaron, he's never taken insurance. He doesn't necessarily know, like what to say to that. I mean, he can give a textbook answer. And that does help some people in the mastermind group as a whole help each other with the mindset shifts and stuff. But just talking to Megan Stinson and she didn't transition, she shut it down because he had a stroke that killed her. And then she reopened, she didn't transition. So she doesn't even necessarily know how to necessarily cut the low hanging fruit off, switch the mindset of you're no longer going to be having the same referrals anymore. And you just have to change your mindset that the referral sources are going to be coming from a completely different area. So literally, Chad can help with that. And he can collapse time because he has what you want. He's actively doing it. And then therefore he can collapse time. He's got all the three things and I really wish that some of the other group leaders and stuff that think they can help everyone really would actually just send them a referral and say, “Oh, you take insurance and you want to transition, we'll go to chat, because he knows what it feels like”. And he can collapse time faster, I may be able to help you, but I can't help you like he can help you. So you gotta go, man.
[00:55:11] Chad Burnham: I appreciate that. That's like, my biggest thing right now is like, all the fakeness out there. And all the people out there and my advice to for people that are and I just had this conversation with a PT yesterday here at this conference is, “Do your homework.” Because there's so many people out there, coaching is like a big thing right now, like everybody wants to be a coach, which is great. I think we do need coaches. But there's a lot of people out there that it's unrealistic. Where they're saying, let me help you grow your practice to blah, blah, blah. Where there's no credibility behind what this person is saying. They literally probably had a business that didn't survive. So they shut it down and they're like, “I'm just gonna be a coach.” They're not actively doing it. I think like you said, Greg Aaron, Chris, you guys all have practices that you guys are currently growing still and working in. And then you're also doing these other coaching programs to also help people. Your credibility is your business that you've already built. And a lot of these people out here, not only don't have the business, but probably never even had the business. I mean you're asking somebody's advice that, like you said, hasn't been there. And I think that people need to do their homework and find those people that are not only have done it, but are still currently doing it. And I think that speaks volumes to me, and that's what attracts me to a coach. I want to see what you've done, show me that you're still doing it and show me how you're doing it. I want to know. Like you said, it just fast in it. It just speeds everything up and learn from my mistakes. Because it took me three years to transition away from insurance. I can do it for you in a year. So why waste two extra years dealing with that bullshit when you don't have to? There's just so many things that you run into that you can totally avoid if you know the steps up front, so now's a good rip. I had a great time. So I will put in the show notes. I'll put everything along with your practice and what you're doing as well as you, Chris, with the adhesion release.
[00:57:29] Chris Stepien: That’s message.
[00:57:30] Chad Burnham: It's active release. So I will put all that in the show notes so that people can look more into that for sure. And I will do as well. So thanks guys for being on the podcast and I get to enjoy day two of the BK live event now.
[00:57:49] Chris Stepien: Cool.
[00:57:50] Owen Johnston: Thanks for having me.
[00:57:52] Chad Burnham: Thanks, guys.
[00:57:55] PODCAST OUTRO: Thank you for joining us “In The RACK” this week. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss out on any future episodes. You can also find us online at proformptma.com, or on social media at ProForm PTMA. And remember;
“If you train inside the rack, you better be thinking outside the rack”.