[00:00:04] Nick: So we won't even get deep into this particular individual's case, but the quote was, “If you want it to go away, just don't move”. And that is what a medical doctor used to this patient, “If you want it to go away, just don't move”.
[00:00:30] PODCAST INTRO: Welcome to “In The RACK” podcast, where we provide you with the practical framework for breaking PRs in all facets of health and wellness. We are just a couple of bros giving you the simple house in a world of complex wants. No filters, no scripts, no rules, just straight talk, talk tune. Now, let's get into the rack with your hosts, Dr. Chad and Dr. Nick.
[00:00:55] Chad: Alright, everyone. Welcome to another episode of “In The RACK” podcast. I'm your host, Chad. And with me is my co-host and fellow physical therapist, Nick. We're gonna make it another stories episode. We haven't done one in a little while. And we got a lot of big things coming up, which we're going to talk about too. But if you are new to the reckless “In The RACK” series, it is story time. And we usually do this every five episodes. But right now we're kind of just like fitting it in where we can, we've got a couple of good stories today that we just couldn't pass up. So if this is your first time listening to the reckless “In The RACK” series, then this is where, Nick, and I share stories from our patients. We like these stories, not only because they are reckless, but some of these stories might sound familiar to you. So that's one of the reasons why we like to talk about it and that's perfectly. Because some of these stories, if they sound familiar, that is the exact purpose of this episode. So you can take the information that we give you and you can make your own decision based on the facts that we present. So I don't think, Nick, wanted to start us off.
[00:02:00] Nick: So we'll start with a quote because this was a quote, I heard from a patient this week, actually I just had to run on my phone and write this quote down because this was from a doctor, this patient's doctor, so we won't even get deep into this this particular individual case, but the quote was, “If you want it to go away, just don't move”. That is what a medical doctor used to this patient, “If you want it to go away, just don't move”. And that is just mind boggling to me. Because we know that lack of mobility, like just lack of movement throughout the lifespan is correlated with early mortality, diseases, and all that kind of stuff. So we're just playing the short term there. Your pain will go away if you just stop moving.
[00:02:46] Chad: I think the craziest thing that's pretty much. I think it's getting better, but I think that's kind of old school medical model, where they're like, “Hey, if it hurts, don't do it anymore”. And I'm not so sure that's the best excuse. Because not everybody knows to take that not so literally. Like some people are just like, “Oh well, he told me not to move. So I'm just gonna hang out on the couch for the next few days until the pain goes away and there are worse things that happen”.
[00:03:10] Nick: And my thing with that is, if you're going to tell somebody that there needs to be more. There needs to be some level of an exit strategy, “We're gonna not move this for the next couple days, maybe 48 hours, 72 hours”. And then we're going to sprinkle it back in or something, there needs to be some kind of plan in there. Just to say that that'd be the only thing that just leaves them in not a good place in limbo, basically, because now they're just like, “I just don't move”. And then what happens is they stopped doing that movement. It feels better than they tried to go back, it still hurts. So then they just stopped doing whatever activity they loved. Or, they stopped moving in that way. And then we get arthritis, stiffness, all that kind of stuff. So just precipitates the issue. They're back in that same doctor's office, they probably say, “Now don't do this movement. And we're just continually restricting all their movements that they have”. So it's just crazy, that there's nothing else with that comes with that information. I’m okay if someone says, “Hey, I don't want you to do this particular movement for the next 48 hours or whatever”. But then we're going to gradually reintroduce it in this way. And that's kind of what we do with some of our movement strategies. And even if a doctor or another provider doesn't know how to do that, or how to best do that. But you can still say, “Hey, look, let's just give it a couple of days, let it simmer down and then let's start to investigate it mix it back in trial some things and go from there”. It’s just crazy.
[00:04:37] Chad: And that can be a huge barrier to a patient's progress for sure. Because they're like, “But the doctor told me not to do XYZ”. And that might be true for that particular maybe week or day or two or whatever. But like you said, you got to give a plan as to when we can bring this back in because now they just think that is just one exercise is completely just bad for them or bad in general so now it's just bad information all across the board.
[00:05:02] Nick: And for anyone out there who listens, that is physical therapists, chiropractor, doctor, anybody, when you have those credentials, when you have that degree, those initials after your name, those do mean something to the people you're treating. They take that information. And now they believe what you say even more, you are the expert in that regard. So be careful with the words you use. We've talked about that a lot on this podcast. But just know that what you're saying, even if you imagine those words differently in your brain, that individuals probably taking them very differently from the way you perceive them. So be mindful of that. Explain yourself, make sure that they understand what you're talking about. Have them repeat it back to you. Does this make sense that kind of stuff? Because just know that with your real credentials, you do have. Yes, you are the expert. We should always continue to be learning. Like your expertise is not just, you don't just get it. You just maintain it throughout the career and the lifespan, but you need to think about it in their seat, like put yourself in their shoes, how are they taking this information? Because when people take that literally just don't move, this will go away. It's not good, it’s doing more harm than anything.
[00:06:24] Chad: And then they lose hope and all that. So just want to start with that quote, I love it. I think that's a good segue into my patient here. Because the patient that I have, she was kind of in a similar situation where she was told not to do certain things. And she lost hope over time. And thank God, she has a son, that's a great advocate for her health. And kind of give you a little backstory on this, we have a patient/client that has been with us for a couple of years now at least. And his mom has been dealing with some low back pain and some leg pain that has been consistent for probably the last year or two. She's gone through the whole cortisone injections, she's gone through physical therapy. She's gone through massage and all this other stuff. And she gets this temporary relief, but he's still having significant amount of pain. So our patient was like, “Hey, is this something that you can help my mom with?” Of course, we'd be happy to help her. So, which is also the best referral we can ever get is a family member. So we're obviously more than welcome to help these people. So she came in and just looking at her. And looking at the “diagnosis” that she had, which was spinal stenosis, I'll kind of start there. Just to give you a little background. She was very much clumped in this category of spinal stenosis, like she was the spinal stenosis patient. And that's how she was treated. So she had cortisone injections for the last year or so. And they worked out great in the beginning. And now they're slowly getting less and less and less effective. She actually just had her last cortisone, I think a month or two ago, and had no relief whatsoever. She ended up having one just like another week ago, which was a little bit more helpful, but combined with everything that we're doing now has made even more of an impact on her. So basically, what happened was, she went to physical therapy and they looked at the script, which said spinal stenosis. So immediately, and all depending on where you go, the physical therapist will have either complete autonomy, or will just listen to everything that the doctor says. And again, we're not saying the doctor is wrong. Maybe there is some spinal stenosis there. But there are many things that can cause spinal stenosis. There's also many things that contradict how to treat spinal stenosis. So she was clumped in this category, where she got the same slew of exercises that everybody with spinal stenosis gets which is basically flexion based exercise, which actually did temporarily reduce her low back pain, but did absolutely nothing for her leg pain. So, she went through this for months, and was kind of going back and forth, back and forth, not really getting any better. And so she finally just gave up, she was like, “That's it. I'm just gonna live with it. I'm just gonna deal with it. Doctor told me that, it's because I'm getting old. And that's just what it is”. And I don't accept that answer either. Age isn't a great reason as to why somebody has pain. So, I ended up seeing her don't you know everything that actually centralized or reduced her pain in her leg was the exact opposite of everything that she was given over the last two, three months. And we actually completely resolved her leg pain within one visit. So I was like, I can't believe. And I actually apologized to her for our profession, I say, “I'm sorry that we failed you, the medical system failed you, we failed you as a profession and I'm sorry that that happened”. But when you get clumped in this category where everybody else is getting treated the same exact way, no wonder you didn't get the results, because you can't treat it like that. You'd have to treat everybody as an individual. The textbook just because it says to treat one thing one way doesn't actually mean that that's going to be the most effective way for that patient. So that was kind of how we went along with that. And honestly, for example, she loved the flexion based exercises. She still does them. And when I say, “Hey, you can still do them. But you have to make sure that you're counteracting all those flexion forces throughout the day”. I have no problem with you doing it, she likes it, and she likes the way it feels like she can get her palms nice and flat on the ground. She's super flexible. She likes the way it makes her feel. But you just have to make sure that you're counteracting that by adding in some of these extension exercises that we're giving you. And then now we're slowly getting her into rotation exercises which is actually making her even more feel better about moving. Actually, just the other day, I saw her and she actually said that her pain is the best she's felt in a while she was actually like, I'm gonna go for a walk after I leave family, as you should. So it's amazing how fast something can be resolved like that, if the provider is actually not only listening to you, but actually spends the time to give you the appropriate treatment methods. So it's pretty amazing.
[00:11:29] Nick: I think to that goes back to what we were talking about before where you need to give them some semblance of a long term plan here because that traditionally, in our medical system, PT course of treatment, and doctor will read a script for six weeks, eight weeks. So people just think like, “Cool, it's gonna be all good in six, eight weeks”. And that's just not the reality. And unfortunately, some of our people in our profession or other physical therapists out there are just like, “Okay, my work is done after the eight weeks you're discharged. You're good”. But in a situation like that, where maybe they are a little textbook stenosis at the beginning. So we do a lot of flexion, they could become so sensitive to that because we've done it so much, that we lost the ability to go any other direction and then they become the direction that relieves that this symptoms before he is now becoming irritable. So that can certainly have we see that pretty, pretty regularly with people who have gone through that be like, this did last time, but it's not working this time. So that's a situation where someone definitely needs that long term.
[00:12:30] Chad: Totally. And I think that the importance of pre framing the plan, like you said, is super important, like, getting her to know that, “Listen, these next one to two weeks, it's probably gonna be a little trial and error, we're just gonna play with some of these movements and we'll see which ones make you better. Let's see, which ones make you worse and let's just go from there”. And luckily within the first week, we figured it out. And that way, we could get a good plan ahead of her. And now she's like we said, she's doing some more rotational exercise, but now we can probably get her into more like stability and strength stuff. She probably wasn't too much of a candidate for that in the beginning, because she was just too symptomatic. And I just wanted her to move, but move in the right directions and then now we can actually get her to the point where we can progress her to that stability and strengthening phase, and then from there we can see how she responds.
[00:13:23] Nick: And in her movement, confidence just wasn't there. So we talked about that all the time here with people. We need to restore your movement confidence before we get into the weights. Like if your brain is not confident with certain movements, with just your body moving through space. Well, how's it going to be confident when we add a weight to that situation? So we need to restore some of that movement confidence and variability first and that's kind of what Chad's describing there. One other thing I want to touch upon with that case was multiple cortisone injections. We're not knocking cortisone or saying that it's bad like you shouldn't do it. No, it's very much a viable strategy but if you're doing cortisone and not trying to investigate and figure out what's going on underneath here like what's the underlying reason I'm still getting this pain coming back this recurring pain, then the cortisone is silly. Because we're just gonna Band-Aid on it. But if you're doing cortisone in conjunction with trying to work on some of that other stuff, then go for it. I think if that can help you get through a plateau or get over the hump. It's great option. But if we're just doing it just because it resolved my pain last time, it just gonna keep going down. This slope is snowball rolling down the hill. And long term cortisone, I think it's important for everyone to understand that long term, the more you get it, especially in the short window, it can actually hinder your tissues and weaken your tissues, especially the tendons. So it can lead to some problems if you get a lot of them in a short span. And that's why a lot of doctors won't do more than three or four in a year kind of thing. So just it's important for everyone to understand and know that for sure. So I got a story. This was actually a coworker of my brothers. And my brother had texted me. It was actually last week and he said, “Hey, can you can you tear a labrum in your hip?” I was like, “That's a thing. Are you okay?” And he was like, “It's my coworker that the doctor told me, he's got a torn labrum, they want to do surgery”. I was like, “I need more than that.” So I said, “Give me my number have him call me”. And so I talked to this guy, and he basically super active wants to be super active. So doctor kind of freaked him out mentioning surgery. So I'm like, “Well, what's going on? What are you feeling? Where's the pain?” It's in my glute, my back. Most labrum tears will typically everyone's different, but typically, they'll present with pain on the front into the groin. And he just got the glute a little bit into his hamstring. And I'm like, “What happened? Was there an injury did anything like that?” If this has just been kind of progressively getting worse? So significant injury, boom, hit pain right now weird kind of movement? Nothing. So where were the images taken back and hip? So, I was like, “What they find?” Well, they found a little bit of disc protrusion, and he said something like, “Well, the doctor said, it's not a problem. So that herniates”. And I was like, “That doesn't make any sense”. That's like, “Anytime we have anything causing a loss of space. You can cause pressure on nerves. And then that can become problematic. Is it problematic if we just find it? No, not necessarily, but it can cause compression on nerves, irritate muscles, things like that”. But nonetheless, we get to talking more, it's like, “Well, what happened to hit?” Well, the doctor just found the hit that labral tear. And they said that that's the problem. And they want to fix that they want to do surgery on that. And his symptoms are not matching up. I was like, “Well, anything else that you get any shooting pains, anything like that.” He's like, “My leg goes numb all the time”. And I'm like, “Dude, this is not your labor man”. I was like, anywhere from like, 20 to 70% of people have labral tears and don't know it. I was like, they just found this because they were imaging the area. I wouldn't worry about the label tear man. I was like, “You need to address the spine more. So here with this because you're getting the numbness down your leg”. So we got to talking more. And very much a situation where probably overdoing it exercise wise a little bit too much combining both weightlifting and a lot of time spent cycling and things like that. So a lot of flexion and then overloading the flexion, probably a little too much like the volume, the programming is probably just a little excessive. So just probably a little of that overtraining type of thing. And then combine that with this onset of ridiculous symptoms that were causing some compression on the neural tissue somewhere. And he's just over irritating the tissue over and over. And the doctors want to go repair the hip. So, just over the phone, I just plan on having a conversation with guy but I was like, “Hey, you need to try a couple of these things. It just set up my curiosity”. So give them some replies, give them some extension based stuff, because it was more so sitting on the bike and all that kind of stuff that was irritating be the symptoms down the leg. And it was all one sided, too. So give him some side glides. So basically just exercises to try to offload that compression fluid, the neural tissue a little bit. And I said, “Just give me a call, if anything is going the other way. If it's not, if you don't reach out, I'm just gonna assume things are good”. Now, I haven’t heard him. So, I'm assuming things are going good. We don't know for sure. But this wasn't a patient that or even really like a patient that we saw in the clinic. I just was like, “Hey, you're my brother's friend. I want to just give you some advice if I can”. But I took a step back for a second I was like, “Man, this kid really would have had a life changing experience. When for surgery to get a labrum repair that, the labor was torn. The image showed there was trauma to it but it was not causing an issue. So chances are back pain would have been worse postoperatively because he would have been immobilized for a period of time on crutches definitely going to make some bad stuff worse, and then also probably would have changed some so who knows how long as his labrum was torn but his body had compensated for that and some not all competitions are bad. So we can absolutely compensate positively. When you have something like that you have a joint “Abnormal”. Now your body compensates and figures out how to function with it, and that's totally fine. And that's why we have so many people out there with disc issues, meniscus tears, labral tears, and pretty much any joint you can think of. And their body just functions, no pain, no issues, and no limitations there. So that surgery to repair that labrum was probably going to result in some now removal or getting rid of the compensations that had helped him get to where he was from a functional standpoint. So now he's going to have to re compensate for the new head, that's going to take some time, all the while, that's probably going to make the back a little bit worse, could make it better, who knows? But he was gonna go down this road and then just probably at some point end up at the state of whatever, it's just unlucky, I'm going to deal with chronic pain for a long time. Like, that's where my brain goes, “Man, if I didn't take that phone call, if I just brushed my brother off, you could have been in surgery in the next couple of weeks”, which is just crazy to me that's where the surgeon or the doctor, I don't even know if it was a surgeon that the kid saw. But right away we got to repair this labrum, can't look at that image and just be like, “This is it. Let's ask about symptoms”. As soon as you ask about the symptoms, if you are in the medical field, and just anything about how the body works in general, you know that as soon as he says numbness, there still might be some involvement of the hip there. But we got to look up the back.
[00:21:33] Chad: Has this kid had any type of physical therapy or anything that?
[00:21:38] Nick: No. So he had in the past for other things, super active kids. So it sounded like injuries here and there from just playing sports and stuff like that. Like my brother was saying that he can't do something like he has to be doing something. So he had it in the past for something else. So nothing for this particular. But I told him, I was like, “I will go to physical therapy first for this anyway”. Because I would hope that the physical therapists out there this isn't around in any way. But I would hope that any physical therapist gives it back and not be labrum tear on the scripts.
[00:22:16] Chad: Give me the whole bunch of hip exercises.
[00:22:18] Nick: Because that happens to and we see that a lot. Like, someone gets diagnosed with labrum tear, and they come to us, or there might be a labrum tear but I'm not worried about it.
[00:22:27] Chad: Honestly, for most of the people that are getting some sort of diagnostic imaging, they're gonna find something, and they're gonna find something. Like you said, “Who knows how long that label tear has been there? Who knows, we see that the shoulder all the time?” Like, a lot of doctors don't even repair those things now, because they're so inconsistent, and they honestly, they don't get better. So if you're debating on a shoulder labrum repair, I wouldn't even waste your time, unless there's only maybe two instances where I know of that I had to actually kind of push for surgery. And it was that one kid that I had that was dislocating and asleep, it was bad, it was a lot of instability and glenohumeral joint. So in a situation like that, I can understand. But overall, if it's just some minor pains, or some stuff that you said, the body can compensate over time, then I just think I've seen more people that don't get the results they're looking forward that’s sort of.
[00:23:21] Nick: And that's why you always have to pair what's going on the symptoms. How limited someone is with what we find in the images? Because if someone's dislocated in their sleep, and the image shows later, that's probably a good situation to actually repair it. Because clearly, there's no compensation being made for lack of labor.
[00:23:42] Chad: And that was actually a situation where the doctors like, “No, I want you to go to physical therapy”. And I think I saw this kid for a month, and I'm like, “There's nothing I can do with this”. Like, there's not any strength exercise that I can give you that's gonna help us from dislocating when you're talking about a structural issue like that.
[00:23:59] Nick: It happens. We've talked about it numerous times about the images, but when you get your images, just take it with a grain of salt, because it will find something “Abnormal” if that's meaningful. We don't know we have to we have to determine for you. Are you limited in your daily activities? Are you limited in the activities you want to do the recreational activities? Is there a lot of pain? Is the pain stopping you from doing things? Is the pain keeping you up at night? All those things are questions that hopefully someone a provider can ask you or you can ask yourself. Quickly other one, I have another patient who I've been seeing him for his back. But he had a recent shoulder injury and the image showed a full thickness tear, but zero pain. And it's a little weak but he has full range of motion. And honestly was showing some signs of the ability to regain the strength because it wasn't just like, “Oh, arm drops down”. It was just like, as soon as we gotta wait. It's just like “I can't lift it, but can bring arm through full range of motion actively”. So there's some signs there that that this individual can regain some strength. And that's the situation might want to say, “Let's see how this goes first?” And again, this depends on the individual. As an individual who's like, no, I need my arms for work. Can you afford to take off three, four or five months of work? No. Well, let's keep going with work then. I can as I own the business. Do you want to do this? Do you want it? Do you want to get this fixed right now? So those are also the considerations we have to think about. We can't just say, “Image shows is torn. Let's just repair that puppy”. We have to take the whole individual into account and be like, “Is this going to work for you right now? Do you need this right now if they're in no pain?” And they're like, “No, I'm good. I can function. Why do we have to repair that? Like, that thing may heal itself.” And it may not. But if they're still functioning, whatever, clearly, that individual does not need wrote to him.
[00:26:00] Chad: And I say that to all my patients to better considering on getting an MRI or something. They're like, “I'm gonna get an MRI”. I'm like, what are you going to do with the results? Are you going to get surgery? I don't surgeon that's the only thing that determining your candidate for surgery. And if you're already adamant about not getting it, and you're already progressing, well, I wouldn't even waste time that save you money, save time.
[00:26:21] Nick: And just so everyone knows it. It's, unfortunately, is the insurance game. So if a surgeon is out there, and maybe they don't even know if they want to do surgery on you yet, but they can't justify opening you up without the MRI, the insurance company is not going to cover any of that surgery, if they do that. So you have to get the MRI in that case, but chance are high. If you're 100% not getting surgery, then really, it's kind of silly to get the image. There might be some red flag issues like it for example, if you're having numbness tingling down the legs, and you have like bowel bladder issues as well. It might be a good idea to get the image just to see if we have we have anything. But if it's just your joint pain, orthopedic pain, and you're just like, “Nah, I'm not gonna get surgery, you might be able to save some money”. Because that's the other thing too. With the MRIs. We're hearing a lot of our patients and clients coming back and being like, “Man, I used to get MRIs fully covered, and now I had to pay out of pocket”. Like, the insurance industry is a mess. We've talked about that a lot. So just know that as well, you might get blindsided with that image from.
[00:27:29] Chad: And I’ll say that insurance, the only one thing that I can probably agree with insurance is that a lot of these insurance companies are now requiring that you do so many weeks of physical therapy before they'll even approve an MRI. I got a patient right now that's like, “I want to get one on my neck. But they already told me I can't get it, I get physical therapy”. Well, by the time you decide if you need the MRI or not, it’s get you better, so then you don't even need to go.
[00:27:54] Nick: And a lot of that has to do with research. So that's the reason research for that because they've found out over time with a lot of things, especially as it relates to the low back and the neck, that the outcomes are pretty similar. If you go conservative with physical therapy over the long term versus surgery. So because of that research, it's like, “Oh, maybe we need to try PT first”. And the other thing I would say with that is when you try PT first, give it more than the 16 weeks that is on the script. Even if you are going through insurance or whatever, you can always spread it out. They can justify it, they can make it a longer case, and it doesn't just have to be eight weeks because the doctor said that on the script. So you can go longer, but very rarely is eight weeks long enough. It's long, long enough typically for tissues to heal. But for your body and your brain and we talked about before movement, confidence to restore. Now eight weeks usually is not long enough, especially if you're a human. In our modern world where you have to work you have a family, you have these life stressors that will most definitely impact your body's ability to restore its function. It needs to be longer than eight weeks upwards of at least give it a solid 3 months, 12 weeks if not longer, because we are seeing some research coming out actually going back to the hip labrum. Most of the hip labrum research shows that if physical therapy is going to be effective, it actually is a six month on average, a six month course of physical therapy treatment. Now that's not twice a week every week. That's just from case open to case discharged six months, but you got to give it some time because your body needs that time for sur. Your brain needs that time.
[00:29:51] Chad: Agree, cool. Good stories, man. So next episode, this will be in a couple of weeks because this is going to be Nick's last day here. He's having baby for a couple of weeks. We are planning on doing an episode when he comes back. We're trying to figure out the title right now maybe like, “What to Expect When You're Expecting” some sorts. We're going to we're going to be talking about the importance of environment and nutrition and everything in terms of baby health as well as not only for immediate health, but future health. So there's going to be a lot of good nuggets in there if you are expecting or have children. So this is something that I know Nick has dove pretty deep into. And I'm definitely going to learn some things too. So it's going to be an interesting episode, for sure. So hopefully, that'll be very interesting for everybody to hear. And I don't think she knows this yet. But we Nick and I talked about this really quick. So we don't want to be like, “We're like two dudes talking about pregnancy”. So we're going to try to get Alicia on the podcast. I know she's gonna be pretty fresh.
[00:31:05] Nick: Maybe we will make it in two, part one and part two. Make it part one, part two.
[00:31:08] Chad: That way, we have an unbiased and we have a personal perspective, for sure. And that way we can shed some light from both.
[00:31:20] Nick: And it'll be mainly about things that both mom and dad can do to improve the environment and their lifestyle around raising children, because it's a very different world we live in. And we need to take that into account. And as much as us as adults, we can say, “Well, I've been doing this particular activity I've been doing, I've been eating this way for decades. Why change it now?” That's fair, that's totally fair. You're an adult, you have the right to make that decision, , you're otherwise healthy from what we can see, you have the right to make that decision. Your infant, especially your children, they don't they don't have that. Number one, the intelligence or the experience with that yet. And number two, they don't have the bodies that the developed immune system developed, really any system to tolerate the things that we tolerate as adults. So you have to take that into consideration when you're bringing a new life into this world. And it has been a huge learning curve for me over the past pretty much a year just in preparation, learning a bunch of stuff and making changes to our lives at home, just in prep for that, to try to do as much as we can to help our child grow and develop. Ultimately, it's gonna be great. It's gonna be great.
[00:32:41] Chad: So let's close this out. We understand and we know that the healthcare system, it'll never be perfect. And right now it kind of sucks. But it seems like we hear these reckless stories way too often. The best thing that we can do is bring awareness like we're doing here with this podcast episode. So my last little bit of feedback is, if you are a healthcare provider and you listen to this, just don't be reckless with other people's health. Do your research and be an advocate for your profession do right by people. And all the patients that are listening, you shouldn't put up with those providers that are reckless with yours.
[00:33:25] PODCAST OUTRO: Thank you for joining us “In The RACK” this week. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss out on any future episodes. You can also find us online at proformptma.com, or on social media at ProForm PTMA. And remember;
“If you train inside the rack, you better be thinking outside the rack”.
